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Ellen Ave
I started my first business on a street named Ellen Ave. Now I ask others how they started theirs.
Ellen Ave
Touch Project Podcast: Pat Spellman Grew A Podcast Over 500,000+ Downloads. Here's How.
Episode 123: Fin (@barneybarnett01) and Pat (@patspellman) talk about how Pat took the 2020 lockdown situation and turned it into a massive opportunity. The lads venture into Pat's journey of turning an information-seeking initiative on what was happening with touch rugby during the 2020 pandemic lockdown into a hit podcast that has garnered more than over half a million listens.
In the world of digital business, Pat highlights the need to ensure easy access to content for media consumers, and good execution in the success of his podcast. We also dive deep into the interplay of radio and podcasting, marketing elements that transfer between the two, and the importance of staying true to oneself in content creation.
Enjoy the show!
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First three people to DM "Pat's Shout. Oh boy, you won. There you go, pat Shout for a free Ellen Ave poster.
Fin Barnett:You see, no one's gonna DM, but Whatever, yo yo, just before we get into it, I hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did with Pat. It was really good. We talked about a number of things, but rather than telling you what we talked about, here's a couple of snippets, just so you see that whole conversation. Stick around for the whole conversation. There's a whole lot of gems in there. Here's a couple of snippets. Enjoy, and then we'll get into the show. Check.
Fin Barnett:"If you can't say it in a sentence, it shouldn't be said" I killed myself trying to do like one every single week for like the first year that I did it.
Pat Spellman:"I'm gonna tease everyone. Yep, I'm gonna tell them it's tomorrow. Yep, I'm gonna tell them it's now and then, yep, I'm gonna tell them it's still there. Hold up, I'm gonna tease everyone.
Fin Barnett:"Well, I'm gonna tease you. I'm gonna tell you it's tomorrow. And then now it's tomorrow, I'm gonna tell you it's here, it's right here. I'm gonna tell you it's still there, it's still there. Go back, listen One of the things that you were telling me when I was like you know, like, how do I get this podcast going again, how do I get it better? Like, what do I do to make it? What's the difference between, like this, getting nothing, and yours getting everything? And you said something to me and it was so we're back. Yeah, for another round. Thanks for the invitation, bro. I appreciate it. I wanna talk to you today about how you grew a podcast over. I'm gonna just guess like 500,000 listens, but I think I'm wrong.
Pat Spellman:No, yeah, it's north of that, but not quite a milly.
Fin Barnett:We died Not quite a mill year but there's a potential return, so I wanna talk about that. And then just, you know you're a wise man and an even better storyteller, so any stories you wanna fold it along the way as well, so tell me. Touch projects, podcasts, touch what I got. Oh, sorry, no, so you grew this thing to over. North of 500,000 listens. Yeah, like when did you start at Y, how, who, what we went.
Pat Spellman:All right, well, give the very high level summary right. So we started in 2020. I wanna say 2020.
Fin Barnett:It was around the pandemic first lockdown. Yeah, 2020 was the first, because that's when this thing started too.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, and I think I've shared. I think I talked about this on your first one, but I've talked about this often. I started the podcast because of my I was a little pissed off at how lacklustre the comms were in terms of touching general, and there was so much going on but very little information. I now know, having spent a year working there, that it's a lot more complicated than just saying something or sharing something. So if I could go back and tweak my critique, I probably would, and. But basically we started the podcast so that I could ring Joe, who is the CEO of TNZ, and ask him questions that we were all dying for the answers to, because that's the only way I knew how, which was just to have an upfront conversation. At that time I didn't work for him and I could ask whatever I wanted.
Pat Spellman:But it turned into a bit of a I don't know a lockdown kind of survival mechanism for a lot of our touch people, not just in New Zealand but actually all around the world.
Pat Spellman:And I guess that's how it grew, because we'd start getting more and more people on and they would share their ficcato, how they're feeling around the lockdown, but equally their stories too, and then that's sort of how we grew it. So it started off as almost a bit of an online protest like give me info because I want to know what's going on. No one knows what's happening. And then we just grew it into, you know, almost like an audio community grapevine kind of thing, where people were able to sort of share stories of motivation, inspiration, education, information, like everything about touch lived on the Touch Project podcast, which I guess by share fluke it was never really the intention, I didn't see it lasting any longer than sort of six or seven episodes, but then, but it was weird because it did right Like he had, the first chat Was the first one with Joe. Yeah, he was the very first episode, mr Spray.
Pat Spellman:And then was it Shaq? Then we got Shaq on because Shaq's like my boy and I've known Shaq way before I was even anything in touch, not to suggest that I am, but you know what I mean, like I knew Shaq before You're the MC man. Yeah, yeah, I knew him before then I knew Shaq and then I had that yarn with him and then basically I just worked through my contact list.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, just a bag of water, a fin up there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah a fins next.
Pat Spellman:And then I took to Sha, you know, and then we got our mate from Ozzy. Here's a funny story. We had Joe on and Joe was able to share some sort of context as to what was happening in New Zealand. And that must have caught wind overseas, right, Because then I get a DM from someone who no longer works there anymore, but she worked at Touch Football Australia, asking if there was an opportunity for us to share some stuff around what's happening in Australia. And then we get Jamie O'Connor, who's the Chief Executive of Touch Football Australia, and he jumps on and uses it as an opportunity to share some context as to how he's having a Saq 30 people and all this other stuff.
Pat Spellman:So it almost turned into a bit of a news feed. And then, I think, ironically, it became so obvious that this was a pretty cool way of doing it that TFA started their own. So many of that, you know, killed her. That's sort of how it started. So I think, in answer to your question, how did it grow to be as popular or whatever it was? It was just the people, right? I never made it about me, it was never about my story because, to be fair, I don't really have one in touch. It was always about the people I was talking to. You know their connection to the sport, Sport and general. I would sometimes ask questions that everyone really wanted to ask but, for whatever reason, couldn't or didn't have the means to ask those questions. I was able to do it, so it was a good time. Those were the days I feel like.
Fin Barnett:I feel like real good podcasts or just like like there's this one dude I listened to and he's like he's just like a regular dude Well, he's pretty successful as well, but he just asked like he's just like straight to the point. And when you're straight to the point, it's kind of refreshing to have someone who doesn't dance around stuff. And this is like everyone's thinking this.
Pat Spellman:If you're lucky enough and I say lucky because I feel it's actually luck to be in a position either powerful, influenced or, you know, so strong that you can do that. I had it for a minute, you know, like there was a very finite time period where I was able to get away with asking whatever. I wouldn't dare do it now, but you know, back at that time you could plead ignorance or for whatever reason. I was a volunteer and I was hot property for a minute, and so I was able to just laugh and get away with asking stuff that if I asked now I'd get a look.
Fin Barnett:Yeah.
Pat Spellman:So I think everyone has the opportunity to do that if they time it. You know perfectly. And then some people there's just so much control, clout or power that they can do it for as long as they want.
Fin Barnett:Yeah. So I know all of those people, certain people, yeah, certain people can't, but I think, if you like, I try to channel that like just even at work and stuff as well, just even in general Cause, like if you want to know an answer, like, why don't you just ask?
Pat Spellman:Yeah, and I think often for me. Anyway, I'll ensure that I've got at least enough value that people will forget that I've offended them, or they will forget I've pissed them off, or they'll forget that I have provided them with enough truth for them to be annoyed. Yeah, I'll ensure that at least my resume is strong enough for them to go. You know what, pat? You're at deck for asking me this question, for whatever reason, be it, it's a stupid question, or they're offended because it's true, and if they don't answer it, that's up to them. But at least I'm not going to get in the ship for asking you. I now know how to time those questions really well.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, you've got to have like a bit of time and to say, very strategic in how you ask these things, yeah, which is sad, right, but that's the reality. It comes from experience. So, like being in a situation where you ask it and then show it, you're like, oh, I shouldn't have asked that.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, and I don't have those moments anymore because I'm now old enough and you know, arguably more mature that I can determine whether or not I think someone's going to be offended by what I've just asked them. And seldom will I go there, and if I do, I probably don't care what you think anyway. So and I've changed man, I don't do that anymore.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, it's nice to channel a little bit of it Like, and as long as you do it with good intent, I reckon as well as like the resume and the whatever behind it if you do it like good intent.
Pat Spellman:Intent is the key to everything, right? Yeah, so if your intention is to generate a new work in Com so you'll know this if your intent of the headline is to generate clickbait, then of course you have to accept what comes as a result of that, right, that's the risk that you run, and sometimes it'll pay off. The reward will be immense, and sometimes you've just created a minor catastrophe and you need to now navigate those waters. I think this every time I turn on my con and open my mouth at Nationals or you know, or something it's. Am I going to?
Pat Spellman:I don't know if I'll tell the story, but I got my very first ever complaint about me at the Nationals just gone. Oh yeah, totally unsubstantiated, absolute rubbish. She was wrong, you know, but you know it was formalized and it turned into an actual thing and I was so offended because there is a million things that you can complain about what I do, say or act, or you know how I conduct myself and what this individual you know was harping on about. It was so wrong and there was so much proof. And then, anyway, the reason I share that is because often you just can't win, bro, like you can be, so you know, so it is what it is.
Fin Barnett:That's true, though the intent, though it's Intent.
Pat Spellman:sorry, that was the point. Thank you for circling that. I got you.
Fin Barnett:I got you.
Pat Spellman:The intent is so important.
Fin Barnett:If your intention is to be, you know, calm and lovely and respectful, then how it's received is their business, not yours Intent and being yourself, yeah, well at work, like so I'm, I'm like an accounts manager now, as I was telling you Congrats, this is to go up.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, I like that.
Fin Barnett:I actually came in. You know I've worked my way up the steps.
Pat Spellman:I'm with it.
Fin Barnett:You know, I came in as just like a little bit of a grunt work. Each day, you know, rock up to work In the trenches, yeah, in the trenches. Hey, what do you need me to do today? I'll set this up. Do this research.
Pat Spellman:I'll find some.
Fin Barnett:Did that. And then you know, an opportunity came along to do a bit of email for one of the clients. That went really well for them.
Pat Spellman:Yeah.
Fin Barnett:So it is, and then a bit of strategy started coming in.
Pat Spellman:Yeah.
Fin Barnett:And then Bit of chat started coming in, as I you decent at talking to the clients. Well, you know, here I am talking to the clients having coffees and shaking hands, baby, that's right.
Pat Spellman:And you know, every letter was created one step at a time. My friend, in order to climb it, you have to first build each step. Amen, you have, but I just came up with it now.
Fin Barnett:That's kind of you can just quote that yeah, no, but how do you climb up a ladder once they've had a time? Once they mean but yeah, so like when I, when I talk to clients, someone said something to me the other day of the like sometimes you're just like so unprofessional, but like only you can get away with it. Yeah, as in, like you kind of act a little bit like off, offbeat, like, but that's just me being myself and it cuts through the character yeah.
Fin Barnett:And I feel like I'll feel it out with the client. You know you can tell whether someone's still bro right. Yeah, A hundred percent. You can tell with their sir bro the room mate, or man or boss or you know, like just hello and sir name, yeah, and like you, as you build the relationship you can feel it more.
Pat Spellman:Have you ever read the room wrong? Not yet, because someone cuts you and they should have been Not yet. So I can Not yet. Yeah that they will come. Yeah, even when I read the room wrong.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, I'm sure it will Like I don't think I'm.
Fin Barnett:I definitely don't think I'm invincible. I've got a million things to learn but no one's invincible. I've definitely found that, you know, like if you just be yourself, be authentic, good vibes, good intent, like no one can really harm me. Like there's that thing about LeBron, and like when people started to hate on LeBron when he got to the height of his game and someone was like, oh sorry, so the dude lived up to all the hype that was impossibly put on him at the age of 18.
Fin Barnett:He like did everything that everyone said that he wouldn't be able to do or that if he didn't do he was a failure. He like got with his high school suite, never been in trouble with the law or that stuff. Like he just like he tries hard every day. Like what do you hate him for?
Pat Spellman:I quote that I don't know who said it, but I and if I was ever, you know, tough enough to get a tattoo, it would probably be this one. It's that you know, if you live your truth, no one can hold it against you, and so that's always a, you know, personal kind of you know, for car or motor or whatever. That I've always gone by is that you can call me whatever you want, or you can critique my mahi, or you can say I didn't deliver on whatever, but you can never, ever suggest that I'm anything other than true to myself and who I am, and you know. Whether or not you love that or hate it or whatever, that's up to you.
Pat Spellman:I don't really I've grown to not care, because I think everyone cares to a certain extent what people think of them, but it's actually I've just accept that that's what people think of me and I, and I also accept that often emotions are momentary and then you can change them. So if someone likes you or loves you, or doesn't like you, or hate you or whatever, that is totally within your power to care and or not, and then, equally to your actions will determine their reaction. So I'm just me, and some people absolutely adore me.
Pat Spellman:And then there are some people that go, oh this big mouth, you know chabalard, you know whatever, and I'm so totally okay with it and it's yeah, I don't know, bro, like I didn't used to be, like it used to really impact and affect my emotions, just how other people like thought of you and stuff. I always wanted to be the most liked guy in touch, like that was my thing.
Fin Barnett:What was that like when you were doing like radio and then like the podcast and stuff, or like being at RSM, like did you, did you have that throughout those phases? Like or?
Pat Spellman:Yeah, I don't know. I am for me. Again, like I said, I've always struggled with never impossible syndrome. Why I don't think so? Because I potentially have always believed in my abilities. You know, like I've always known that, that I am capable and I'm very confident and sometimes I will struggle with, you know, perception or you know looking around and not seeing anything that reflects or remind me of me. That was always.
Pat Spellman:One of the struggles at RSM was that I was the only Maori person in a staff of 70, or at least the only, you know, visibly vocal Maori, because you can never guess someone's fuck up upper. But that was always a struggle for me is that if I, if I can see it, I'll be it. And if I look around and I don't identify as someone in the room and I'm the only one in the room that often unfairly on myself, I'll, I'll weather the weight of responsibility of oh well, now I have to be Pat the Maori or Pat the Cook Island or Pat the Pacific guy person and I think that's just something I need to work through myself. But I don't know. I've always struggled with that is that you know people's perceptions of me and it was only very recently, like maybe this time last year when I realized he actually has nothing to do with me. If I live my truth and they help and they hold that against me, then that's on them, not me.
Fin Barnett:I've been trying to do a better job of that myself. I think the last few years, especially like I've really come into like being comfortable with who I am.
Pat Spellman:Yeah.
Fin Barnett:Something that, like I think it's like from the past, when I was doing the podcast. I get so like a little bit stressed and like nervous about, just, for example, this podcast, like when it comes out like people are going to, like you know, think some kind of way, or is it not going to go well, or is it not going to be.
Fin Barnett:Like I messaged Tyler and Courtney they are the ones who are on the podcast last week or the other week or whatever, yeah, and I miss them. I was like, oh, I was a little bit nervous when I put this out because I was like you know, what are people going to think? Or like, is it going to be a flop? I'm stressing about something I can't control, which I don't like, and I've been working on and I'm way better at it, but, for whatever reason, now that this podcast back like I'm stressing about things I can't control again, but I messaged them, I was like that's how I was feeling, but I just listened to it back and like, regardless of like how it's received, I'm really happy with it, like it was actually real good.
Pat Spellman:You know, I guess that comes with you know being a profile. You know this sounds edas, but being a public, you know profile, you know someone who has a profile and be clear, anyone that puts themselves out there is a, is a pro. You know, as someone who is, who is confident or brave enough to share enough about them to complete stranger, is worthy of being championed. Because you know, if you are generous enough, brave enough and and you know, I guess, confident enough whether you are always confident or you find confidence in that moment to share a little bit about you and provide value for others, then I think you deserve to be championed. And I think that's the being nervous about something or being, you know, on the edge about how something is going to be received, comes as a part of that process of finding their confidence to want, you know, want to be, you know, received as respectfully, as you hope, people.
Fin Barnett:Well, it's like having confidence in like what you know you've done and can control, like, for example, this podcast. I can like have a good chat and that's all I can control doing. I can like make, like I can do, cool descriptions or whatever, and that's all I can control doing, but I can't control how other people would see it. Or like at work. I remember at the start of the year like we all get along mean at work and stuff, like actually I love my work. It's preface that just claim.
Fin Barnett:Preface. But I remember at one point there was just like a bit of a back and forth and I remember going to the meeting being like I'm so comfortable to like not talk back but like to back myself against anyone because like I know I do my job and I know I do my job really well. Yeah, like so I'm quite confident in myself and the things I do that I can control, like for example in that work setting, so that If someone judges me or someone like perceives something, something I'm like oh well, you know what?
Fin Barnett:like I know I did a good job, so I can back myself on yeah, yeah. I guess it's just trying to work on that, to have that with the podcast. Did you like? You literally like? Hundreds of thousands of people have listened to the podcast and it's not about you, but you're the one facilitating all of the chess. Did you ever think about this in relation to that?
Pat Spellman:I Don't know. That's a good question. No, probably not. Probably going back to my time in radio, like I was never the superstar of the show, that makes sense. Always Scotty Pippin, never Michael Jordan. Good example.
Fin Barnett:You know, yeah, great I was, I was.
Pat Spellman:You know, most times I was the anchor of the show and if you're familiar with how radio works, as you left someone, like you know, old-school hip-hop and R&B that seems to be light on flavor, and then you'd pan to the next person and then they'd come in and that you know I would pitch the ball. I would never be the one that smacks it out the park, and so my expectations have always been high, based off of the fact that I'll never have a conversation with someone that I don't Genuinely believe has something to share and has value to add or is going to make someone who listens make their life better. There's just no conversation. A few of them had less of that in it, you know, in terms of their episodes, but everybody I took the time to reach out to and lock in and have that conversation with, I felt could add value and it like it goes back to radio. Like you know, as the anchor, it's often your job to set up the play of the voice break, and I would never go into the, into the show and set up voice breaks that I didn't believe had an Mj moment. There's just no point, because that my job is to ensure consistent value and so I don't know.
Pat Spellman:I think One of the one of the things for me over the last little bit is that I've always been so super confident of my abilities, but often the key to being a really good team player is understanding that not everybody is as confident in their abilities and their value that they bring in so often. Regardless of how much value I know I can bring the team, my Achilles is often been Not looking around to see whether or not other people can keep up or whether or not their value is akin to mine, and so as long as I finished the race, I was totally happy. But if it's a baton relay, then that doesn't really make sense. You know you have to be a team player to ensure that everybody is at that standard, so do you?
Fin Barnett:ever develop like like tips or tricks to to help out other people? Yeah, like with the podcast or like with the radio, you know, you have to facilitate, like you say, like I can't just be you, that does well, I think, for me, bro trick.
Pat Spellman:No trick.
Pat Spellman:But what I did and I got better with this over time and I'm not perfect by any means and I never, you know, I never profess to be perfect, but what I've, what I've become better at, I believe, is just taking a moment, taking time and actually assessing the job and understanding what needs to take place and Work, work backwards from the I think I've said this to you before.
Pat Spellman:I always work backwards from a goal, but generally what I would do is work backwards from the goal and how I would achieve the process, and now I'll often now village mentality, everything. So I'll work backwards from a goal but ensure that I will focus on the stuff I'm really good at and then I'll go okay, finn's really good at that, I'm gonna reach out to Finn and Finn's gonna help me with this. Or Jordy's really good at this, I'm gonna reach out to Jordy, or Liam can help me with that, or whatever. I've just become really good at Surrounding myself with really good, competent people that are superstars in their lane and then ensuring that Every lane of the pools got a swimmer.
Fin Barnett:That's lucky, a bar man.
Fin Barnett:It's pretty boring race if you're the only one in it, but oh, wow sometimes you just hit me with the lines they just, they just so crisp they throw me off my rhythm just like that you know that one. I think I can break down the podcast success to perfect timing. Yeah with some great execution, yeah, good names in the sport and Great facilitation of a chat which makes it enjoyable enough to listen to that someone say sweet. I want to come back like one of the things we talked about with this podcast.
Fin Barnett:It's like what do people come back for each time? And we had that what is it? Well, now it's about chats for business and people like listening to other stories from other people that have been in business, been there, done it all, been there, doing it like that. Listen to, like their stories, listen to like their tips, their learnings, their mistakes.
Pat Spellman:I think remember the young that we had like. Why I listened to your podcast was at the time, which you've obviously. You know there's been a pivot right or you've been a pivot.
Pat Spellman:It's been like a focus, it's been like a same energy of like good people doing good things, because it was young young Professionals at first, right yeah yeah and I think at the time and I think I shared this with you the reason I would listen to Ellen Ev, particularly when I was at out, because I said I already seem at the time why I would listen to our words I received, why I'd listen to Ellen Ev, was to get Inside as to how someone teenies younger than me, because you were how do you know 23, so you literally ten years younger than me, right?
Pat Spellman:Yeah, so I would listen, just so that I'm in In sync, I guess, with how people ten years, my junior thinking and acting and moving because that's still kind of important in the world that I, that I work in terms of comms, trends and whatnot.
Fin Barnett:But yeah, I think it. Yeah, Well, I think like people like, for example, with the touch project podcast, it was like a way to stay on the pulse and like, for this example as well, it's like Every everything in business these days. Like I was having a chat the other day with Sam, I was like everything a business is digital, like everything is like this podcast, there's like online marketing, there's online, like just websites in general, and like some people are either in that world or they're not, but either way, like you need To be in that world and either way, like there's things that people are doing in that world that, like you can take for yourself Whatever you're doing as well. So I kind of like that's like the angle that this is going down now.
Pat Spellman:Nice, I like that.
Fin Barnett:It's just like being focused. Yeah, you know, but like the reason that your things exceeded was all of the things that I said, like it was good execution, like perfect timing, good names, like everyone in that niche was like sweet and you were the only ones. You had no competition as well.
Pat Spellman:And then when?
Fin Barnett:there was competition like respectfully, I think you were Still the number one.
Pat Spellman:I think the other thing too, bro, is you have to make it easy, because often we, in terms of people that consume media, there's so many options, right, there's so many options and so many different avenues one can take that it needs to be as easy as possible, and so I guess we really. I really wouldn't have started the podcast if it could not have been on every single platform straight away. So it was super important that when we dropped an episode, it was on Apple and Spotify and you know I, heart and Google and everything straight away. You know at the same time and so often, like I and sometimes what you can control that because things would get dropped at different times or whatever. So sometimes an episode was already on Spotify for like Three hours before it, you know, before it popped up on Apple or whatever, and so I just wouldn't tell anybody until everything was ready.
Pat Spellman:Oh yeah, because I didn't want, like if Finn listens via Spotify and I listen on Apple, and then I put something on IG or saying on Facebook or whatever, and said you know yo episode with you know Pat's online now and they would define open in a wasn't there. I really didn't like letting people down. The irony is that we let people down a lot Because you know guests pull out or audio trash or Someone you know gets told they can't do it or whatever, and we've already told people. So I got, I got. I got really good at recording it, editing it, getting it ready, asking if they're okay and then tell people. So like this next.
Pat Spellman:You know, Whatever, we're gonna call it the return. I've told maybe you know just off sidebar how many people in your close friend, oh man, yeah so I've hungry oh.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, okay, that's a good thing, yeah yeah, that's a nice political answer, that one anyway.
Pat Spellman:So no one knows, and I'm not gonna tell anyone because I've just learned, bro, like you got to keep it easy and you have to, you have to just not let people down.
Fin Barnett:Hmm, I don't know when you do, but Well, something I've like learned with flat essentials and with this podcast is that when technology is, bring it back. I Looked at the Instagram the other day and I was like yo, this was fire, like I was running. That I can't believe it.
Pat Spellman:I wish I was as well off as I am now, back then because I just want to bought ten boxes of you just to be, just to be the man, because I remember when I'd buy them off you man, I'd have to budget for that shit. Yeah, I Respect it still to this day. I would buy one support everything I do.
Fin Barnett:I'm literally sitting at a table looking at the L and F poster that's in front of you.
Pat Spellman:I don't even have one of those. You can have one.
Fin Barnett:I honestly don't even have one of those. Yeah, maybe you always ended a friend then, so anyways.
Pat Spellman:Can you sign one for me before you go?
Fin Barnett:yeah, I actually will get cool if you want to you can have one and you sign one for me.
Pat Spellman:I'll put a proper solar friend L and F comm.
Fin Barnett:I don't even know if you know. Yeah, there's the one there on the shop. Anyways, are they? Yeah, I think so. I just haven't made them as prominent because I was being weird to do it.
Pat Spellman:So before now, first three people to DM, I'll buy the one.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, there you go.
Pat Spellman:Okay, first three people to DM first three people to DM. Patch out, I'll buy you one.
Fin Barnett:There you go, patch out for a free Ellen have posted. Yeah, can help you so no one's gonna DM.
Fin Barnett:But Anyways, what I've learned with both both of them is that, like, when something can go wrong with technology at will, yeah, and I have had to teach myself to be so much more patient and have way less expectations and Pressure on myself to deliver something. So, even with this, I was like I I'm taking Pat's approach, I'm not having a set schedule like when I do them, because, because that's what I do, I killed myself trying to do like one every single week for like the first year that I did it, bro, and I can pretty, either the quality would be trash, what I would literally like run myself into burnout because I was forcing an episode and I was. You know, like the Wi-Fi was absolutely trash so it wouldn't upload, and then I was stressing about our YouTube's not up but the the audio is. Or you know, like, oh, like, it takes me like five hours to edit this. I could just not edit it, but it won't be as good. Like there's so much that can go wrong with first technology touch project.
Pat Spellman:When we first did it I was dropping two a week right yeah, at the peak sometimes three lockdown. Nothing else to do, nothing at 100% right, and that was just not sustainable.
Pat Spellman:Yeah and then I started putting real unnecessary pressure on myself and I would, you know, take it real personal when people would say no, they don't want to episode, which is totally okay, because not everyone was a certain to about touch. But I'll be like, what do you mean? And it wasn't about. You know, like I did, I never took a moment to appreciate, like it's not, like Iran can do it, but I would take a personal and I and in reflection I now know the reason I was taking it personal, because then I wasn't able to hit my own, your own unnecessary KPIs of two a week.
Fin Barnett:You got to have no like, unless it's your actual full-time thing that you are doing and like that's your thing, I reckon yeah you can't put pressure on yourself. You got to understand it's probably gonna take like an extra two days and you think and you also got to remember my old man said this to me he's like you gotta remember that you're the only one waiting on it. Like realistically, that's, that's a, that's a good one. You're the only one waiting on it, so I like this massive meltdown once.
Pat Spellman:I like.
Fin Barnett:Essentials or the podcast. Yeah, and I went to him. This was like I was. I was going through a bit of a phase at this point. I was struggling like mentally. I was like it was a little bit hard, hmm, and.
Fin Barnett:I was like dad, like this, like it's all going like the hell, like it's it's going down, it's going to shit, like it's not working, you know. And he was like what's wrong? I was like, well, we said we were gonna do this and like it's tomorrow and it hasn't happened and we're not gonna be able to do it and I don't know how we're gonna do it tomorrow. And he's like how many people are waiting on this? I was like I don't know, but like I said that we would do it and I don't want to not meet what I said. He's like so where's the pressure coming from? Is anyone else like like pressuring you for this? I was like, nah, he's like just you. I said yeah, well, he's like the only one waiting on it. Is you like?
Pat Spellman:shut up boy.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, it's all your expectations. You know like sorry.
Pat Spellman:I like that. What was the question? I quit again, cuz I only one waiting is you.
Fin Barnett:Come on, mr Barnett. Come on now. Old man's got a couple of bars like that as well, when you edit this, you're gonna laugh.
Pat Spellman:You haven't got headphones on, but I accidentally pushed one of these buttons and it was the wrong button, and you're gonna laugh when you edit it, is it like a sound? Effect. Yeah, and it was like, and it was supposed to be like one of these is like that one. Oh, I dropped that. This is my new thing on the podcast. Whenever anyone says you know something like dope, I'll be like.
Fin Barnett:Anyway, it's moments with Pat, yeah yeah, yeah, you get like the silky soft. Yeah, but that's like I know that I like things I had to like. Learn that and yeah. That would have been the same for you going from like two to three a week and lockdown versus like going back to, like To go back to work, you know yeah, how dare.
Pat Spellman:We has to go what it like sidebar. How good was locked down in hindsight.
Fin Barnett:Honestly, I loved it. Yeah it wasn't even in hindsight.
Pat Spellman:I'm like, did you go back to mum and dad? I was at mum and dad's.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, already. Yeah, I was on the farm every day. I was over it yeah, the first one was it was at mine. The second one, I was at choppers, and then the the third one like 2021. Yeah, we were in.
Pat Spellman:Auckland for a lot you know? Yeah, that was the first lockdown because I knew everyone what, like you know, there was, that there was dope. I love the first one yeah that's just in there.
Fin Barnett:Like that was cool, everyone was in it together, man.
Pat Spellman:Second one I'm like, oh yeah, I could do another one got me out of a few things. Actually, the second one I thought you went a conference and I really didn't want to go to it and I was like, yo, that's a nice one. Third one, Bro, ruined my mental health. I mean the worst thing was that, like everyone else except Auckland, and we were just sitting there like watching the world and the world's Just keep going on. I'm doing walking around the block and pocket on like you know, there's nothing else going on.
Pat Spellman:I lost a bit of weight during that.
Fin Barnett:I wonder what it would be like Because I know people like listen to this from like Aussie and UK and you know America and stuff as well, they're probably listening to this thing.
Fin Barnett:Oh, he didn't even have a bad, or we did a bit. Anyways, lock lockdowns aside, I think like I've got a. I kind of already knew this, but it's nice, like pick it apart in the conversation around around the podcast. Like, yeah, one thing that I I Didn't appreciate until recently was how good of a job you did at pushing it using, like social media. Oh yeah, did you have? I Feel like I've asked you this before and I feel like I was like what was your strategy? What was like, what was your plan? Did you have, like content pillars? Did you?
Fin Barnett:like you know, like I feel like I've asked you something. You just like wowed me with your answer. But did you have a plan with socials like that? We, we being deliberate. Were you just being off the cuff like oh?
Pat Spellman:No, there was a little strategy, but it wasn't like I didn't have. It wasn't a plan, I just had a mental strategy. This ironically, this is something I've been told as one of my you know career red flags is that I'll often just it's in my head and then I'll just go with it. Don't need to write it down, don't need to tell anyone, just trust that it's in my head. No, you know that they don't. He gets you so far for so long, bro. Honestly, for me there was no real plan. It was just like I knew where everyone was. We were all on our phones. We're all sitting at home. There was no strategy. It was simply like, yep, I'm gonna tease everyone. Yep, I'm gonna tell them it's tomorrow. Yep, I'm gonna tell them it's now. And then, yep, I'm gonna tell them it's still there. And here's a highlight, here's a quote Hold, up, I'm gonna tease everyone.
Fin Barnett:Well, I'm gonna tease you. I'm gonna tell you it's tomorrow, and then, now it's tomorrow, I tell you it's here, it's right here. I'm gonna tell you it's still there, still there, go back Listen. If you missed it, was that stories post just however or both.
Pat Spellman:Like you know, yeah, stories wasn't a huge, like huge, huge thing as it is now. You know, now we've got, like you know, as you know, there's almost campaigns designed, you know, primarily for stories, right without there having to be a great post where it's.
Fin Barnett:Back then we were still kind of, you know, toying with that idea such a good way to look at it, though, like I actually have never even looked at it like that consciously, like I think, I think you could look at stuff I've done and I'd be. I would have done that, or like someone else might be listening. I've done that, but I've never consciously been like oh, tease them, tell them it's like almost Tell them it's still there.
Pat Spellman:It's a radio thing, right so?
Fin Barnett:Oh my god, I think that's the gym.
Pat Spellman:So that's the gym next time you're listening to the radio, next time you're listening to the radio and if you so happen to be in a car for you know a 30 minute period if you're in traffic Just don't go spot a fire, don't listen to podcasts or whatever. Just chuck your favorite radio station on ideally a music one.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, I could see the edge, flavor, mind, whatever, yeah listen to the radio and listen to how they start the air and then how they work their way around a half an hour. I'll start the hour by teasing you. This hour your chance to win $15,000. I'm gonna play a new song from Diddy. Up next it's the new DJ Khaled song. Justin Bieber on flavor. Oh, my god right, it's like your back with tea. So we've teased you. So this is what's happening this year Don't go anywhere. Then the next one it's around like up next, your chance $15,000. I told you before we'll do it next. Don't move. He's DJ Khaled. I'll play the song Mm-hmm. I'm gonna do the competition Right now. Give me a call. I went hundred for flavor. Your chance to win 15 grand. I need caller for ring me now. Yeah, and then three songs later. If you missed it, I gave away $15,000. Don't worry, we'll do it again tomorrow. More deeds at flavorconz.
Pat Spellman:So that's the this year 40 minute pan right in a radio world. So Coms is just radio. Radio it's just comms. Like that's what I would do a guy. It's. We confirm the guest Finn. Boom, we've locked it in, we've recorded it, it's done. I'm gonna tease everybody. Hey, you know that that hunk of a man on the wing.
Fin Barnett:He's coming up.
Pat Spellman:He's that and everyone's like you know, and often that would be the post that got the most engagement because it peaked everyone's interest, oh shit.
Fin Barnett:No good, no good really.
Pat Spellman:Tony, try, holy shit. And then tomorrow, like that's like I, sweet, don't miss it, this is before reminders on IG, right, so they didn't have that at the time and then we'd post it online now listen, boom. And then I'll wait about a day, two days maybe, but it would always be the cycle, because you drop it. Wait a day. Have a look, have we hit thousand yet? We're good, I had sweet.
Fin Barnett:That must be so nice man.
Pat Spellman:It got it, it got um, it was unhealthy for a minute.
Fin Barnett:That's me one day one. One day maybe I.
Pat Spellman:Put you know. The thing is, though, I always wanted to be better than the episode before mm like I wanted, which was not sustainable once he started hitting the, the bigger names, hmm, say yeah, yeah, yeah, but some we would like, um, we wouldn't, we would have, um, I did a, I did. The guy from FIT, the old fella, yeah, that was the dad like and I don't mind telling them that like it was me, my mom and you know the neighbor that listened to that like no one even listened to it straight away. They all went back and might have been by accident came up next and you know, apple or whatever.
Pat Spellman:Um, there was actually so much value in that, um, in that episode.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, he talked about eligibility.
Pat Spellman:You know what's happening around the world with COVID, blah blah. And it wasn't until, like, people went back because that run out of other Episodes to listen to, and then we back and listen to him. Keep forgetting his name Old fella.
Pat Spellman:Nice guy hold me off. Actually, in the end fun fact, if you go back and have a listen to it there's a bit at the end where I'm, like you know, rounding it out. Thanks for your time. Oh good, oh good. Hey, pettifig, you just stay on the course whenever check with you. And then I was so lazy, I didn't need it to that.
Fin Barnett:I was like yeah, you sweet.
Pat Spellman:Sorry, I stopped pushing recording. The next one was like how do you blah, blah, blah. It was pretty funny. And then the bro tip, you know, mrs, he was like what do you want to talk to you about? At the end that I was like, oh, you wanted to give me the what's up. And even even now People will like say, oh, what do we want to talk to you about? Oh, that's because I left it in yeah, it's gonna annoy me now if I don't get his name.
Fin Barnett:Yeah, well, I'll let you come back to it.
Pat Spellman:That's like Bill Kerr, bill Kerr, there you go, sorry, sorry, anyway.
Fin Barnett:I listened to the radio. This I did this a couple months ago. I was thinking about, you know, bringing the podcast back. I was listening to the radio because, like, when you think about it, the radio has been around much longer than podcasts, long time and it's still around Mm-hmm, and like they have hella money, like it's all. It's all fading and fading, and fading and fading. But, like you know, you listen to your everyday podcast and it's like, oh, like, if it's remotely successful, there might be a podcast if it's hella successful. It's like, oh, like, you know, like, go buy my merch or my course or something.
Fin Barnett:Yeah like you listen to, like your average radio stations, like literally. Like you said, we've got five tickets to RMV. Call us like and we're doing it every day this week.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, and I was like the way they market on there is like so good yeah it's um, it's pretty lessens the tech from radio, you know, in Because prior to um, even I might have even been before, but like radio or newspaper, can't remember which one I want to say it's newspaper. But radio is like oh gee, hmm, like Jesus was on the radio, like you're like yeah, it's been around long, a long time ago.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, like, and so, even in a situation like you know, one day I'll end up back on the radio. I can just feel it, you know, it's just like my purest love. You know, before touch there was radio. Yeah, and one day I'll you know, I'll figure it out and get my own show or whatever. But I don't know. I just feel like podcasts and now just little radio shows. I listen to morning shift every morning. I was gonna say, listen to morning show, honey, cuz like obviously would you?
Fin Barnett:they kind of are like doing kind of the radio thing, because From an outside perspective they left, they left radio. Yeah there's a whole whatever around there and now they're doing their own radio. I listen to it because um.
Pat Spellman:Obviously, one of my best mates works there. I don't think it worked. I don't know if he still works on the show, but he was part of it, the very beginning side out of yeah, it's my boy, but I love it.
Pat Spellman:I think it's great. They've managed to remove all of the things I hated about radio, sitting through four minute a break, songs I don't like, and they've just given you the good bits, just the good bits, and that's the. The irony is that Radio works really well when you, when you focus on the good bits, because you make the good bits, make the music and the ad's bearable. What what the morning shift has been out of do is just focus on the good bits. How they'll integrate partnerships and advertising into that, we'll see. I'm advertising it. I don't know, not that I've heard. Oh was he? But you expected to pop up at some point. Right, I got a manitizer, you know, million downloads or whatever it is Like it really oh no surprise, yeah, yeah, so.
Pat Spellman:So it'll be, it'll be dope.
Fin Barnett:What, what would you other like takeaways from radio be like? You got the teaser and tell them it's tomorrow, tell them it's here, tell them it's still there, like is it what other like that you can think of Marketing stuff, how they do the ads and and all that, or I think the big thing for me radio is if you can't say in the sentence it shouldn't be said, and You're you know.
Pat Spellman:You can then choose to go in depth on it, like breakfast radio, which I only did for about a year. You can indulge in A paragraph where a sentence would do right, because people are more inclined to listen longer on breakfast, because it's more personality driven. But generally this is why my comms is always very succinct and I'll, you know, flesh it out a wee bit more where where it's necessary. But my rule generally is that if I can't get it out in a sentence Then the message needs to be refined and that's very much a. There's some radio DNA and that, so you should be able to say everything you need in a sentence.
Pat Spellman:Because of the for the large part of I was ready for about 18 years and large Chunk of that time I was on drive in the afternoons, which is a little less purse, so driven then Then breakfast, and then I was always either by myself or I was on a two or three man or Person, because we can't see many more a three person show, and my job was always just like I said. I was the pippin right. So I was in the the funny guy or the Dom Harvey or the whatever like it was. I was always the Mike Peru. I was always the person who started the break. If we're fletching Vaughan, I'm definitely fletch your Vaughan, right. That's the the reality of my time in radio. But that was the thing. Is that generally it's my job is to is to find Synergy and make things succinct. So if I can't say in the sentence it's too long the fact that you hooked them with the sentence, and if they want more, then you tell them, but you sell them on the sentence.
Fin Barnett:Yes, bars, yeah, that's like arm. There's this, there's this model. Like eight, like Ada, either would be like attention, interest, desire, action. Oh yeah, that's like one of those, like there's so many of those models or whatever but I've been doing this bit of a copywriting course recently that I've actually been really enjoying. It's like a nice thing to do before I go to be a dish night.
Pat Spellman:Oh yeah.
Fin Barnett:I personally think I'm a decent copywriter.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, nice.
Fin Barnett:I don't think I'm a good copywriter or a great copywriter, but I don't think I'm bad at it either. Yeah, but it's something I really like, so I was something I want to get better at, so I'll get better at it.
Pat Spellman:I like that.
Fin Barnett:And it's exactly that, like say in a sentence or hook them in or whatever, and then build on it, if you want. Well, if I do it with a podcast, so, like winners are, it's a sentence, but the podcast is 40 minutes.
Pat Spellman:I don't even know how long this chat is well, how I found is that it's all the details and that you know devils in the detail, whatever it is. But for me it's always. You sort of start every key point of the yarn with a bit of a, with a bit of a hook, every now and then, depending on what your interpretation of someone's that you know attention spinners, you should really hook them in. So when they see the very, hook them back in. So I don't know you'll notice this when you go back and edit this, but even now and then I've dropped in a bit of a I people are drifting off. Now they don't care, but we're saying I'm gonna drop something now. That's gonna get them to go.
Fin Barnett:Oh shit a little bit longer, once you cut them all out when you go to it. I feel like we've really got like, honestly, the last 20 minutes and I've actually been like that's been real, I've been loving that.
Pat Spellman:But I think and I've certainly been guilty of this, but it's a generational thing, older people will do this that they're very word count heavy, right, because to them you give value in volume. So if you give someone heaps of something it's worth more, but actually it's not. You know, if I can say it in a sentence, I'm still charging you what it would cost if I gave you a thesis, because it doesn't matter, whereas I've worked now for some people who love to indulge in a yarn and Often doesn't need to be. And you know what my thing is the more I say, the more I'm lucky to get myself in trouble. So if I can find a way to say something, yep you know, in a sentence or less and still provide value, then absolutely I'll do that.
Pat Spellman:but I've sat in a room where I thought Did you really say that, bro? Like, and it's always Third, fourth, fifth paragraph of the yarn yeah, they know they start off with three lines Perfect. End it there, bro, you're done. No, no, he'll keep going, or she'll keep going, or they'll keep going.
Pat Spellman:Yeah and it's like, oh, if you'd stopped at paragraph one, you you know we would have been sweet here. Or if you just got up and said what a real honor and a privilege it is to be in this room today. I really appreciate it. We're looking forward to giving you out. Well, thank you for letting us be here. We promise you the utmost respect and we can't see, and can't wait to see on the field tomorrow. Now we can't. Could do, done run.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, oh, bro, you know how many times I've been in a room where I thought it's not what I wrote. Yeah, so for me, bro, it's like Say it in a sentence.
Fin Barnett:I reckon the perfect amount is just enough.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, you know, though. Yeah, um, you know, I know, I know when I've said enough and if I look around Now that I can see, if I look around and they're like you know, drag it on a little, jiminy, that's when I get myself in the shit. If I've got a pad, something a little bit longer, because I don't prepare to pad, yeah, like when I say pad, I mean you know, stretch it out, stretch it out. I never prepare for that because I think, like my breath, you're not ready, you know ready. We're gonna stand there and look fucking awkward because it's your fault.
Pat Spellman:Yeah that's fair enough, but that's the problem. See, I'm a team plan now, so I pad old pad. You know what a beautiful day it was something like that.
Fin Barnett:There's, um, there's one more thing that I want to ask you about. Well, I actually I want you to talk about it. Yeah one of the things that you were telling me when I was like you know, like how do I get this podcast going again? How do I get it better? Like what, what do I do to make it? What's the difference between like this getting nothing and yours getting everything? And you said something to me and it was. It was like you make it about them.
Fin Barnett:You're like, I don't make it about me, I make it about them. Yeah like everything on the podcast, everything like on the socials, especially like I don't know. Like if you could touch on that and just like what you mean by that and how you Do that, mainly in a social sense because you kind of done it for the podcast, they'd be pretty valuable well, it's all in in the statement, right.
Pat Spellman:Like I, my approach with the touch project was was never about me. It had to be about the people I was talking to and with and alongside Selfishly, because these stories are way better than mine. So, in terms of creating a drawcard, well, that's your drawcard, right. So, in order to grow reach and impressions and connection with people, give them something to want to reach toward, and if they loved you enough, your numbers would tell you you know, and if they were interested in you a lot, then your numbers would be astronomical, right. And that's what I found is that People love the fact that, for the most part on the podcast, 90% of the of the content is the people, and I've actually been told you need to jump in more and it's like no Bro. If they want to share that, and let them share it as we've found.
Pat Spellman:Sometimes editing is really important, but make it about the people, because they're the drawcard and your goal is to and this is my approach to MCing things too. So I've said them watch some terrible MCs who think that they are the stars of the show and actually our job is to glue things together in between accents, to get out and Make people smile, but don't make them laugh, because then they'll forget the jokes of the next person. And if you make them laugh, I need a little bit of laughter because we need them to hold on to some laughter for the next person. So I don't know, if your job is to be a superstar, that you shouldn't be the host of a podcast. That's always been my sort of ficcadil. I don't know if that's gonna resonate with anybody else, but it's really worked well for me, and often, too, people will share more if you let them and if your Entire approaches. What about me then?
Pat Spellman:you know it's a bit Shannon Oly and you need to sort of focus on, but you're too young for their reference. But you get it now Insert Shannon Oly. I've said that before, though I have.
Fin Barnett:I said that line with you before.
Pat Spellman:Yeah, Shannon oh, was the guy that just for the kids? Millennial, is it millennials? What's the one after Cuz?
Fin Barnett:I'm not what I am, I'm just me, I'm just getting selfish.
Pat Spellman:All the gym now's back in the day, because I'm 32, 33 next week, so we must be coming up to a year anniversary because, yeah, we had this young with birthday last year. Anyway, yeah, back in the day, guy Sebastian was an Australian.
Fin Barnett:Idol.
Pat Spellman:I know who, guy Sebastian guy, sebastian, one Australian Idol, and the guy that he, the guy. The guy. That guy beat in the finals a guy called Shannon. Oh, cut the south of podcast because it's fucking terrible. Jet Shannon, all had a song. What about me? Oh I know it's all. That's a classic, yeah, so whenever I go, that's long about him not winning. I don't know if it's his song, but he certainly sung it and made it famous, at least for me.
Pat Spellman:And so yeah, whenever I go. You know what about me? It is a fair Shannon all Unless you're 28 plus. You're not getting that reference.
Fin Barnett:Okay, well, now I know, that Shannon was on this side. That song I'm definitely I'm gonna make that like the highlight of the Just you're singing. Anyway, moving on no well, I Feel like that's, that's a good chat.
Pat Spellman:Do you feel?
Fin Barnett:that's a good chat. I'm happy with that. That's good, I got a lot out of that.
Pat Spellman:I hope so.
Fin Barnett:Are you so?
Pat Spellman:I reckon that's like yeah, kind of their mics down, we're good.
Fin Barnett:We're good.
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